Curse

Lusciious · Jan 11, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

oh i've something i'm not sure about . do we have to constantly call our targets or do we just do it once ?

MasterSasori · Jan 11, 2010, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

oh i've something i'm not sure about . do we have to constantly call our targets or do we just do it once ?

Are you referring to AP or discord? Heroes are generally smart enough to use discord correctly but if you load them with too many hexes and conditions they will tend to apply them to the enemy instead of taking advantage of discord. Then in this case you will have to micromanage, which is what you want to avoid. Therefore the secret is to find the correct balance of hexes and condition for your team to wipe out the opposition faster.

For AP, yes you normally need to call your target for your heroes to attack that one specific monster or they will attack other monsters other than the one you call. After a while, abusing AP becomes relatively easy with practice.

Lusciious · Jan 11, 2010, 10:53 PM // 22:53

For AP. No what i meant is that do we have to call out every single skill we use or just the first one ?

Life Bringing · Jan 12, 2010, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

For AP. No what i meant is that do we have to call out every single skill we use or just the first one ?

Just call out a skill, and the heroes will lock onto that target.

syphonus · Jan 12, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

For AP. No what i meant is that do we have to call out every single skill we use or just the first one ?

c-ctrl-space works nicely. You have to do it with pretty much every enemy as a caller, so I'd get comfortable with it. You should only have to ping once per enemy; though I find myself pinging several times if the target doesn't immediately drop.

EDIT: and tab a lot.

AndroBubbles · Jan 12, 2010, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagra

And, to support the concerns about dependency on AP, if you don't target properly or something goes screwy (like not taking out healers, etc.) you can be left facing the full cooldown of the skill. Better to take something with a normal cooldown and roll with it.

This.

There's a plethora of viable elites that can be used with discord way, and there are plenty of skills with a relatively quick recharge that do very good damage.

syphonus · Jan 12, 2010, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

This.

There's a plethora of viable elites that can be used with discord way, and there are plenty of skills with a relatively quick recharge that do very good damage.

Assassin's Promise is the single most powerful caster elite in the game, bar none. Saying it's bad because the target might not die is backwards. If you learn when and how to use it you effectively turn your bar with one elite into a bar with several.

MercenaryKnight · Jan 12, 2010, 11:49 PM // 23:49

I don't call out any target. I just find my target hit space then ap ymlad random skills and heroes will always target that enemy once it's primed.

Life Bringing · Jan 13, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I don't call out any target. I just find my target hit space then ap ymlad random skills and heroes will always target that enemy once it's primed.

You'll find that you have better results if you call, and even better results if you use a macro to micro discord on your heroes.

Dependancy on AP is a joke. Learn to play the freaking game. If you know that the mob has hex removal, bait it out by microing Shadow of Fear/Meekness on the mob first, or simply starting your chain with a hex besides AP. My caller bar usually has backup hexes to use on the odd chance that AP does get stripped anyway.

1.AP
2.YMLAD
3.EVAS
4.FH!
5.Sig of Deadly Corruption
6.Barbs
7.MoP
8.Enfeebling Blood

HigherMinion · Jan 13, 2010, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

You'll find that you have better results if you call, and even better results if you use a macro to micro discord on your heroes.

Dependancy on AP is a joke. Learn to play the freaking game. If you know that the mob has hex removal, bait it out by microing Shadow of Fear/Meekness on the mob first, or simply starting your chain with a hex besides AP. My caller bar usually has backup hexes to use on the odd chance that AP does get stripped anyway.

1.AP
2.YMLAD
3.EVAS
4.FH!
5.Sig of Deadly Corruption
6.Barbs
7.MoP
8.Enfeebling Blood

Sigh-build. You do realise you can spam every skill on your bar against every foe without Signet of Deadly Corruption?

You're investing a PvE slot for 45~ aoe damage and energy management when you already have AP and MoP... Silly boy.

When will people learn By Ulral's Hammer is irreplaceable! Come on! +25% damage 100% uptime? Broaden your minds...

Chthon · Jan 13, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

He's calling AP a crutch for people with bad energy management or those who use too many high-recharge skills.

He's a fool. AP lets you use -- or even abuse -- powerful skills that otherwise have unworkable recharge times (ex: MoP) AND you get a good chunk of energy out of the deal. It's arguably the most overpowered skill in GW PvE at the moment. Well, maybe not, since apparently some people find it too hard to use effectively...

On topic: Anything that kicks out a quick condition and hex can run discordway. AP is often favored for casters because it meets that requirement in 2 skills (AP+YMLAD) and provides the energy and recharge bonuses to help you make a passable build with the other 6 spaces.

Off-topic, but important: Discordway is seriously overrated. I've often called it "mediocre." Most classes can manage a stronger H+H build with a different focus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

If you're going to play a physical rather than an AP caller, there are better options that actually synergize with physicals.

I agree. I'm just quoting this to point out that you've reversed your prior position. And here I'd given up on your capacity to learn... I was wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Sigh-build. You do realise you can spam every skill on your bar against every foe without Signet of Deadly Corruption?

You're investing a PvE slot for 45~ aoe damage and energy management when you already have AP and MoP... Silly boy.

For that matter, why does that build have YMLAD? It's already got EB, so YMLAD isn't really needed to provide a condition. When it's not serving that purpose, YMLAD isn't that strong of a skill, considering all the other PvE skills that a curse necro can press to the hilt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

......

Or AP calling could just be the most common build that's run with Discordway. At PvX, we store the most "meta" or commonly run builds.

Think of PvX more as a tool than a crutch or a burden. Obviously, GW is a game and should be fun and creative, so feel free to do that.

And, I'm sorry that you think we delight in giving people "poor" builds. We were actually just recording the AP caller that was posted here on GWGuru, and was considered the most meta

Be that as it may, PvX has serious problems. The discordway build PvX reports as "great" is a crap variant of a mediocre build. The vast majority of "good" and "great" builds on PvX are either crap variants of decent builds or crap builds. The AP-MoP necro build was almost ranked as unviable when Moloch first posted it and he had to ask people who weren't idiots to go rate it just to save it. In short, your vetting system sucks. If you have a sincere interest in overhauling the vetting system, PM me, and I'll offer my ideas on improving it; otherwise, simply consider this an expression of my opinion about your vetting system.

Life Bringing · Jan 13, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Sigh-build. You do realise you can spam every skill on your bar against every foe without Signet of Deadly Corruption?

You're investing a PvE slot for 45~ aoe damage and energy management when you already have AP and MoP... Silly boy.

When will people learn By Ulral's Hammer is irreplaceable! Come on! +25% damage 100% uptime? Broaden your minds...

.....what skill does 45 aoe damage and gives energy? Think you got your skills mixed up.

Quote:

For that matter, why does that build have YMLAD? It's already got EB, so YMLAD isn't really needed to provide a condition. When it's not serving that purpose, YMLAD isn't that strong of a skill, considering all the other PvE skills that a curse necro can press to the hilt.

It's Discordway, not any other team setup. The goal is to make a single target explode as fast as possible. Ranged knocklock+~70 damage is pretty worthwhile, especially because it's instant.

maxxfury · Jan 13, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

.....what skill does 45 aoe damage and gives energy? Think you got your skills mixed up.

Signet of corruption(necro pve only) vs signet of deadly corruption(sin eotn regular).

Must admit i made the same mistake till you questioned it :P

Easy one to make imo

Chthon · Jan 13, 2010, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

.....what skill does 45 aoe damage and gives energy? Think you got your skills mixed up.

That would be Signet of Corruption. Signet of Deadly Corruption isn't a very good skill either...

Quote:

It's Discordway, not any other team setup. The goal is to make a single target explode as fast as possible. Ranged knocklock+~70 damage is pretty worthwhile, especially because it's instant.

1. The fact that "[t]he goal is to make a single target explode as fast as possible" is a big part of why discordway is mediocre in the first place.

1b. Furthermore, why put MoP in your build if that's the goal? You bring a great sticky hex and then dedicate the remainder of your build to making sure it doesn't stick... (That's more an indictment of discordway than using MoP though.)

2. "Knocklock" is keeping a target immobilized and unable to act by repeated knockdowns for as long as necessary. A single knockdown per target isn't "knocklock."

3. If damage is the only purpose this skill serves for you, why not Necrosis instead? Discord cycles in 3 sec, so you've got time for the cast. And it's better damage and much better recharge if you need more than 1 cast on some targets.

Life Bringing · Jan 13, 2010, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That would be Signet of Corruption. Signet of Deadly Corruption isn't a very good skill either...

Was looking just at the skills i posted m8.

Quote:

1. The fact that "[t]he goal is to make a single target explode as fast as possible" is a big part of why discordway is mediocre in the first place.

Spiking single targets while everything else explodes due to minions and putrid bile.

Quote:

1b. Furthermore, why put MoP in your build if that's the goal? You bring a great sticky hex and then dedicate the remainder of your build to making sure it doesn't stick... (That's more an indictment of discordway than using MoP though.)

Note sure actually, but helps when theres some form of downtime. Even fitting in 1 spear attack before the target dies can do fairly significant damage though.

Quote:

2. "Knocklock" is keeping a target immobilized and unable to act by repeated knockdowns for as long as necessary. A single knockdown per target isn't "knocklock."

ohaider EVAS.

Quote:

3. If damage is the only purpose this skill serves for you, why not Necrosis instead? Discord cycles in 3 sec, so you've got time for the cast. And it's better damage and much better recharge if you need more than 1 cast on some targets.

Simply because the 3 pve skills im already using serves my purposes better than necrosis would.

Athrun Feya · Jan 13, 2010, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Be that as it may, PvX has serious problems. The discordway build PvX reports as "great" is a crap variant of a mediocre build. The vast majority of "good" and "great" builds on PvX are either crap variants of decent builds or crap builds. The AP-MoP necro build was almost ranked as unviable when Moloch first posted it and he had to ask people who weren't idiots to go rate it just to save it. In short, your vetting system sucks. If you have a sincere interest in overhauling the vetting system, PM me, and I'll offer my ideas on improving it; otherwise, simply consider this an expression of my opinion about your vetting system.

I agree that the vetting system isn't entirely fair although disagree with your reasoning. The fact that you can grab 5 friends and get something rated is more of a concerning issue. In the instance you mention, Moloch probably had the same issues that any new user has on any site, sadly who posted the build is on PvX somewhat reflects in the ratings. This is not necessarily a problem with the site itself but more of internet communities in general, those who have gained reputation from regular users are generally more trusted. Having said that, I would be interested in your ideas to improve it.

The main problem we have is that pretty much every user has their own take on discordway and sabway and there isn't really a definitive best build. Different things can be better depending on what you play, where you play and your style of play. I've never worked out how we choose which variant to post. Also remember your opinion may not necessarily correlate with that of the majority of users.

I also don't understand why people who think all the builds there are terrible don't post their own or don't suggest improvements on talk pages. If a lot of people actually have issues they should bring it up on the talk page so that a consensus is reached to get the builds changed.

For me, I think of PvX as housing two specific types of builds (as far as PvE is concerned anyway): first type is collection of theorycrafts which you should use to base your own builds on to suit your play style and situation. Put another way, it should really be an extension of a player's natural instinct to look for synergies between skills. And, although I'm not the hugest fan of the build, Discordway fits under this category. The builds presented on PvX are more like suggestions than definitive builds where you need to copy every skill and piece of equipment exactly. The caller, for example, may not be optimum for specific professions or situations but it does give a reasonably good, universal suggestion for players who are struggling to think of their own build. We can't viably list all the different options for the caller, even just listing 'optimum' caller builds is a very subjective affair.

The second type gives puggable elite areas/dungeons standard builds and usage, so people don't spend umpteen years forming groups. Although not strictly the optimum builds (yes we already know adding an extra terra to FoW makes it much faster, for example), they have been optimised for pug groups.

Like I said, I'm personally not the greatest fan of Discordway (tying up so many attribute points in Death magic and Soul reaping and playing such a linear main player build aren't really things that appeal to me) but I still recognise that it is a strong build. A build which is capable of easily killing anything anywhere when played by anyone is not only great but incredibly overpowered.

maxxfury · Jan 13, 2010, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

...snip...

Thats about the best summing up of pvx i think ive seen, other than the need for a thick skin with the regular flamings

Seems a lot of the crappy ratings by idiots are been removed too

/gj

Oh and discoway is easy cheesy lazy mode, get job done with a minimum of effort without a need to really spec for an area. plug 'n' play baby

Tho smashing shit up side the head with my heroes buffing me up is better

~Jayson

syphonus · Jan 13, 2010, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Tho smashing shit up side the head with my heroes buffing me up is better

Yup. /thread

As far as discord bars go, here's my two cents:

AP
YMLaD
EVAS
Finish Him!
Reckless Haste
Enfeebling Blood
Rip Enchantment
SoLS

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

When will people learn By Ulral's Hammer is irreplaceable! Come on! +25% damage 100% uptime? Broaden your minds...

For discord, at least, I'd rather have the YMLaD-EVAS knocklock and the FH 200 dmg spike.

Many people bring MoP along because when you have AP on your bar, it seems too good to pass up. It isn't worth it, in my opinion, because you don't have any source of focused physical damage, other than EVAS. Spear auto-attacks and minions just don't add up to make it viable. For better or worse, the goal of a discord team is to drop single enemies as fast as possible.

Life Bringing · Jan 13, 2010, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Lau pretty much nailed it. The pvx discord is set up to be ultra-defensive. Probably more so than necessary. You can coast through any mob with almost no care in priority targets or pulling, which makes it fairly valuable to someone that's not exactly great at the game. Of course it could be made better, but trying to incorporate what everyone thinks is the best option is impossible

AtomicMew · Jan 15, 2010, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cthon

I agree. I'm just quoting this to point out that you've reversed your prior position. And here I'd given up on your capacity to learn... I was wrong.

I never actually stated that discordway was good with a physical. That huge 30+ thread was in the necromancer forum for a reason. Also, if you dig around in the heroes forum, there's another thread huge-ass thread where I argued the exact same point.

So no, I haven't learned anything ;o